Lifting Up Their Faces…Surgically

.
.
.

Lifting Up Their Faces…Surgically

by Donna Vermillion

.

An introductory note from Rich: The following article by my wife, Donna, is an outstanding confrontation of an issue that seems to rarely get addressed. Namely, the difference between INNER beauty and OUTWARD beauty.

The Scriptures say it this way, in regards to women (but which would also certainly apply to men): “Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel—rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God” (1 Peter 3:3-4, NKJV). What Donna points out herein is that there are too many ungodly—but popular—televangelists these days running around trying to improve their OUTSIDE appearance (via cosmetic surgery) while their inward parts are “full of greed and wickedness” (Luke 11:39, NKJV). Just as Jesus is more concerned about our INSIDE purity, so should these people be primarily focused on dealing with their own hearts ABOVE AND BEYOND their appearance. After all, one’s appearance will not help them one bit on the day of judgement, when the Lord will speak to “many” those terrifying words, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work lawlessness” (see Matthew 7:21-23). Yet, these people are ignoring the critical issues of their heart while they focus on their external looks instead.

So Donna’s article here is about the NEED for these people to deal with the corruption found within their own hearts, which is evidenced to us all by their manifest “fruits” (see Matthew 7:15-20).

However, this article is NOT a denial of a person’s right to get a facelift if they want to—and Donna clearly states that fact, while even suggesting it is a good idea for some people. Nevertheless, some readers have gotten hung up on the outward issue, and missed the main point of her article—indicating, perhaps, that they were convicted by Donna’s message, because they themselves are not tending to their own hearts…or that at least, that they lacked good reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. ;)

And now on to Donna’s bold, but loving, article…


Woman marked for a face lift

Is it just me or do Gloria Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Lindsay Roberts, and so on, look very different than they did years ago? As a woman, I do notice these things.

When I first saw the “new” Gloria Copeland on the BVOV daily broadcast a few years back, I wondered about it. At the time, I was so duped by those wolves that I actually did not know if she had really had plastic surgery; or if her “faith” was just so strong that the years of confessing her youth being “renewed like the eagle’s” had finally manifested. I even remember saying that to someone.

Joyce Meyer? Well, I kind of agreed with her decision to “get a lift.” (The first time, anyway… I have no idea how many she has had to date, but her mouth is looking really weird to me now. Sometimes people need to know when to stop!)

How about Paula White? She was very pretty to begin with and was, in my opinion, nowhere near the standard “face-lift age.” Why in the world would she need to do such a thing? If you scan through her photographs on her website, you will see that her face looks so recycled that it is ridiculous. In an effort to obtain the most “perfect” outer beauty, she has actually ruined her appearance (in my opinion).

It is sad, really. In Gloria Copeland’s case, and in the case of some of her buddies, this “face lift fancy” seems to originate mostly from sheer vanity. I am not against a woman looking her best (especially for her husband), but these folks have an obvious Hollywood-like obsession with their looks.

In Paula’s and Lindsay’s cases, I see a lot of pain and insecurity that they are seeking to relieve only through superficial means. These two seem to be very messed-up women and clear examples of what Proverbs says that a woman should NOT be:

As a ring of gold in a swine’s snout, so is a lovely woman who lacks discretion.

(Proverbs 11:22, NKJV)

Paula was seen in very promiscuous looking circumstances with Benny Hinn in Italy. Lindsay was caught doing “questionable activities” with teen-age boys in Tulsa (download this court documentbut ONLY if you can stomach the details). There is certainly “no fear of God before their eyes,” to be acting this way (Romans 3:18). So it is very strange to me that these women think that multiple cosmetic surgical procedures could overshadow their seemingly “pig-like” character. For those who are discerning—i.e. read their Bibles and judge accordingly—the swine’s snouts of these apparent “church whores” should still be obvious, regardless of how far they “lift” their faces surgically.

What these women seem to not realize is that they are trying to achieve inner beauty by changing their outer appearance. At the risk of sounding cliche, we need to get back to Proverbs chapter thirty-one’s description of a virtuous woman. This is what it says:

Who can find a virtuous wife [KJV, "woman"]? For her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her; so he will have no lack of gain. She does him good and not evil all the days of her life.

(Proverbs 31:10-12, NKJV)

Well, I guarantee you that Paula’s ex-husband, and Lindsay’s current one, have not experienced a life of their “hearts” being able to “safely trust” in their wives. Verse thirty then says:

Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing, but a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised.

(Proverbs 31:30, NKJV)

As I said, there seems to be no fear of God in these woman’s lives. The Holy Spirit, through Peter, described where a woman’s beauty should come from:

Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel—rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.

(1 Peter 3:3-4, NKJV)

Notice that some of the scriptures which I have cited above say that the inner beauty of a godly woman is very valuable (e.g. “…far above rubies…,” and “…very precious”). From an economic standpoint, what makes something valuable? It is its rarity. Common things are considered “common” in value, but rare things are typically considered precious.

The fact of the matter is this: “Narrow-way” women (Matt. 7:14) seem to be a minority in church circles today in America. Notice, I am not referring to the unsaved people outside the church—I’m talking about “church women,” particularly the ones who are in the pulpits and on television.

For a male minister to lower himself to “dog” status by returning to his own “vomit” of sin (see Proverbs 26:11) is despicable, of course. We all know that sin is wrong for every person, regardless of their gender.

However, there is just something in every human being that says, “A woman just should not do that.” Even if all the men surrounding her have fallen, there is a standard of godliness that, for some reason, we all know that a woman should follow. When she does not walk with an exemplary moral standard, it is like “a gold ring in a pig’s snout” to behold. Nobody—not even an ungodly man—respects a whore.

So there seems to be an “unspoken” rule: If anyone in the family should take a stand for holiness and fidelity in the home, it should certainly be the “lady” of the house. (And I thank God that, in our house, my husband does, too.)

Just to clarify, let me say that I am not against all face lifts categorically. Like I said, I think it was a good idea in Joyce’s case.

The point I am expressing in this article is that—instead of ONLY outward face-lifting—there is an urgent need among the “piggish” women professing to be Christians, for them to lift up their faces to God in genuine repentance:

A Face Lift Nightmare

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

(Ephesians 5:5-6, NKJV, emphasis added)

There must be a stirring up of the fear of God in the hearts of women. There must be an emphasis on the eternal consequence of sinful behavior, some of which even many gentiles would be too ashamed to participate in (1 Corinthians 5:1).

After all, one day everyone will die…face lift or not. Whether God’s judgement is welcomed or ignored really doesn’t matter—it is coming anyway. Moreover, it will begin in His house:

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

(1 Peter 4:17-18, NKJV, emphasis added)

Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all [even Christians] appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

(2 Corinthians 5:9-11, NKJV, emphasis and bracketed note added)

This is true for EVERYBODY…even women preachers.

—Donna Vermillion

.

Leave a Reply

  1. Wow. A great article Sis. Donna. I suppose we should not expect anything less than harlotry from leaders of the harlot church and that those who “pimp” the gospel, behave like whores.

  2. Just yesterday I seen someone say that Joyce Meyers seems to have had a face-lift…

    I wonder of she thinks she will reach her aging audience by re-doing her face. But I guess that no one will want to hear the faith message from some old crinkly looking people. I wonder how many male WoF teachers have also had a face-lift?

    • LOL, Damon! From what I understand, Dave Meyer had a facelift. I also think Dr. Don Colbert, a close buddy of Copeland experienced a lift too. I guess they were mid-life crisis situations or something. I always think it’s really weird whenever a man does such a thing. It’s like he’s trying to look pretty. Icky.

  3. I had attended what proved to be a very unhealthy church for quite a few years. The pastors (husband and wife) had appeared on Copeland’s television show and a tv crew had shown up at our church once. Not long after Gloria got her facelift, our pastor’s wife did the same. A bunch of us just looked at each other and wondered what that was all about when she showed up all tucked up. Now I understand that image is all that really mattered!

    • Wow, Marion! That is a very intriguing “amen!” to Donna’s article above. It does sound like that to that pastor’s wife was following in Gloria’s “footsteps,” and that “image” or “appearance” was what really mattered to her, and not purity of heart. The fact that you described that congregation as an “unhealthy church” seems to emphasize that probability even further. We praise God that you got out of there, indeed!

      Thank you for sharing that with us.

      Always in Jesus,

      -Rich

      • Rich, I can indeed tell you image was ALL that mattered. A couple I’ve known for years that were installed as elders were told that they were there strictly to make them look good! No suggestions or criticisms would be received. Godly leadership? I don’t think so! When I found that out, that pretty much sealed the deal that I would never darken their doors again. That facelift was kind of like the Emperor’s new clothes.

        • Thank you, Marion, for your testimony. It sounds like all these guys operate the same way behind the scenes. What a blasphemous slap in God’s face to use their ministry office in that way. Contrary to what they believe, God is no respecter of persons. Those who seek to be something added nothing to me.

  4. This is a very important issue that needs to be dealt with. To me this blog post describes a symptom of a bigger problem in the body of Christ, which is how women are valued.

    Unfortunately women are not valued as they should in the body of Christ. if you are single you are nothing because you are not a wife. If you are married you have to be a stay at home superwoman or you are accused of being a feminist. It is sad that so many Christian women do not understand how to judge their value through the eyes of Christ. Our standard of beauty comes from the world in the body of Christ. I guess I have an interesting perspective of this being unmarried my entire life until I married in my early 50s. Regardless of what is stated in this wonderful blog post in too many Christian circles it is not the wholesome woman that get the attention of men, especially preachers. It is the one that looks like Barbie (however she develops that look) and HOT. How many times have preachers dumped their wives for a young Barbie model and there is no consequence? Women see this. Those that are not secure in Christ will do what many preacher wives are doing to try and look good. I’m not excusing anything but it would sure be a lot easier if there was not so much hypocrisy in dealing with this issue. You can tell women to change but frankly many will not if men do not like that look. I’m speaking as a woman who has known a good number of women that think this. Those that do not succumb have resolved to not be valued. This is really sad.

    Just telling women to change is not enough with the climate of the church as it is. Women are constantly bring told by leaders one way or another they are not good enough for the reasons I mentioned. Some insecure women could read this Biblical post and think ‘Here we go again’ or ‘I cannot win’. Since preachers are saying this they could easily transfer this thinking to God feeling that God is not pleased with them either. All of this while church leaders, probably all male, talk out of both sides of their mouths regarding the issue. They will say on the one hand that Christian men want virtuous women but select women that look like Barbie and in some cases obviously not virtuous.

    The motivation of why many women do this or feel like this needs to be addressed stronger in the church. Too many times how women legitimately feel and have a right to feel are completely dismissed as coming from being emotional or hormonal. Until that changes I feel this wonderful message will be ignored even though it is coming from a woman.

    I have tried over the years to discuss this with women over the years because I understood that this issue was not being secure in Christ. However with the climate in too many Christian groups are as I mentioned it is hard for many to get past. For them I might suggest these days to take a break from attending services and reconstruct their walks with the Lord in order to get His view of them.

  5. My husband mentioned a point that I feel needs to be added here. Since a lot of these people doing the surgeries are supposedly ‘faith people’ some could very well jump to a conclusion that they are looking ‘good’ because of being blessed of the Lord with ‘walking in faith’ instead of the look coming from extorting funds from people to pay for the scalpel treatment.

    • Yes, Pamela. I did mention in the article that even I (at the time) was caught wondering if Gloria’s faith got her a new face, or if she was just like regular people who had gotten a new face surgically. Such a sad embarrassment that we could put these people on such a high pedestal that we didn’t even recognize they were human!

  6. Like Dolly Parton said, “If the barn needs painting, for pete’s sake paint the thing.” You CAN be a Godly person and still want to look good! The glory departed from us when Adam and Eve sinned. Is it so wrong to have a heart that yearns for beauty to be present upon us outwardly and inwardly? Is not beauty of God? Do you think the Lord meant in the Garden of Eden for us to become saggy and wrinkled in many years time? I see nothing wrong with wanting beauty inwardly and outwardly and I will not judge those who have chosen to go under the knife. What about getting braces for your overbite and crooked teeth? What about the children who are born with cleft pallet? Should they just “let it be” when there are means to make things better?

    • Dawn, thanks for popping by to post a comment on this article of my wife’s. However, I must encourage you to re-read it, because you seemed to have missed her points. Not only is Donna NOT categorically against face lifts and plastic surgery, she stated so within the article. For example:

      Joyce Meyer? Well, I kind of agreed with her decision to “get a lift.”

      Just to clarify, let me say that I am not against all face lifts categorically. Like I said, I think it was a good idea in Joyce’s case.

      Consequently, Donna’s point was clearly stated above to be this:

      The point I am expressing in this article is that—instead of ONLY outward face-lifting—there is an urgent need among the “piggish” women professing to be Christians, for them to lift up their faces to God in genuine repentance…

      Throughout the article, Donna clearly discussed what appears to be rampant sin, and thus, an apparent lack of “inner beauty” some of the women mentioned within the article. So she frankly stated that INNER beauty is the MAIN point of her article…but that “going under the knife” to improve the outer appearance is NOT necessarily a bad thing, under the right circumstances. However, there are two conditions wherein face lifts and etc. ARE a bad thing in her view, which are indicated within the article above:

      (1) When the women in question are inwardly “pigs” (i.e. immoral).

      (2) When the women in question are doing their plastic surgery at DONOR expense (i.e. living the “high life” on money that was contributed for the purpose of proclaiming the Gospel, and not for subsidizing ostentatious lifestyles). To plead for the children in Africa, for example, and then use that money to buy a new house and get a facelift, would be PURE fraud, would it not?

      So please re-read the article with these clarifications in mind, and see if you do not discover that you and Donna are essentially in agreement (as near as I can tell from your comment above). :)

      Always in Jesus,

      -Rich

      • Rich your wife lost my respect when she referred to these women as whoreish! Who are you and your wife to pass judgement? Did God die and make you and your wife gods? Neither of you have the right to defame or gossip in this manner nor call them piggish! Facelift or not neither you or your wife known these women’s heart and Joyce Meyer actually spoke about being prayerful about having her face lifts. I cannot be anymore sure than either of you if the no other three were prayerful about it or not, but I would bet that they were. The Bible is clear do not talk about the speck in another’s eye when their is a log in your own, do not be critical of another lest you find yourself guilty of the same sin or worse, and judge not, for the measure you judge so shall you be judged.

        To minister love and bring the back slidden and new believer into a relationship with Jesus we must show the love of Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. Calling a fellow believer “piggish” and “whoreish/whores” does not cut it as a Christian. Look into your own walks and check yourselves because it is this type off hate spewing that will destroy the body of Christ! I guess they forgot to teach you both about agape love in that “cemwtary” school you attended! Shame on you both and repent for the Lord is faithful to forgive and to forgive Christian women who choose to have face work! You and your wife do not set a good example here. Shame on you both!

        • Izzie,

          I really do think you mean well. (At least I hope you do…it is questionable, given how you ended your comment). You seem to be concerned about people, and are concerned that perhaps we are spreading “gossip,” which would be wrong if it were true. (It is not true, however, for the points made in this article are verified by hyperlinks to evidence that supports our conclusions.) Nevertheless, despite your possible good intentions, you have actually ENDORSED what we have done AND at the same time SELF-REFUTED your own criticism of us. Let me now explain…

          Question: Are you not “judging” my wife and I for what this article says? To re-quote your own statement, “Who are you… to pass judgement?” You are doing the very thing that you are telling us to NOT do: Namely, judging our behavior/actions! Yes, you have done just that! Ha ha!

          ;)

          In reality, by “passing judgment” upon us as you criticize us for “passing judgment” on others, you have done two things:

          (1) NULLIFIED your own criticism, by doing the very thing that you accused us of doing (please see Matthew 7:5 and Romans 2:1).
          (2) Proven that you REALLY DO BELIEVE that people should be held accountable for their actions (even publicly), and thus, you have actually ENDORSED what we did with the article above.

          In fact, you not only nullified your own criticism by demonstrating hypocrisy, but you also nullified it by proving YOURSELF wrong! In short, you are SELF-REFUTED! So you did my job for me with regard to my response to your comment: I did not have to “prove” you wrong, but merely point out that you proved YOURSELF wrong.

          ;)

          On top of everything, you even began to insult us, and to abuse us with your words at the end of your comment. So…is that the kind of “love” you are admonishing us to show to the people we discussed within this article? What do you do for an encore after writing a rather hateful comment that admonishes us to “love” others more? Are you one of those people who drives around in a car with a “Christian” bumper sticker while cussing out other drivers? Your performance in the comment above is no less absurd.

          I would highly suggest that you read my article “Judging”: Hypocritical vs. Biblical (especially before attempting to post a reply). Therein, you will discover in even greater detail why your entire comment has condemned YOU while justifying what we have done.

          Within that article, you will also discover why what we did (i.e., publicly criticizing known “wolves in sheep’s clothing” regarding facts concerning their behavior) is fully biblical, while what you have done (i.e., publicly criticizing us for doing what we have done) is both unbiblical and hypocritical. You will also discover therein that TRUE LOVE confronts people for their ACTUAL sin (i.e., not the imagined sin you have falsely attributed to us). Passages such as the following make this point clear:

          ** James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

          ** Titus 1:0 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

          ** 1 Timothy 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

          ** Galatians 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?…”

          Obviously, James and Paul do not agree with your VERY FALSE interpretation of what constitutes “agape-love.” You seem to think that ignoring the sins of known heretics/frauds is “good,” while you hypocritically criticize Christians for doing what the passages above admonish.

          So what about what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 23 as He rebuked the Pharisees and Scribes? Are you going to accuse the Son of God of not “walking in love” by doing that, when He was Agape personified? How about when Jesus rebuked two churches in Revelation chapter 2 for FAILING to confront heretics and a woman that Jesus called a “Jezebel”?

          These points are so important, I should probably quote those for you now so that you can see that what you (falsely and hypocritically) advise us to do, would earn us a rebuke from our Lord if we complied with your absurd request:

          ** Revelation 2:12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,

          ‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

          17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

          18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,

          ‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

          24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

          27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
          They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
          as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.

          29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

          Yes, your entire comment was perhaps well-intended, but self-refuting and in contradiction with the Scriptures. Since you are doing (in a false manner) the very thing you have accused us of doing (which we are doing in a biblical manner), you have also demonstrated hypocrisy via the misguided “correction” that you directed toward us. This is especially true with your various false accusations and insults, which you somehow seem to think is the model of “love.”

          Although I know this reply of mine was rather direct, so was your hypocritical comment. Hence, these passages came to bear:

          ** Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

          You see, Jesus did NOT say to IGNORE the speck in our brother’s eye, but to FIRST remove the “plank” without our own. Once we can see clearly, we are INSTRUCTED to remove the speck (if one is actually found to be there) in our brother’s eye, because that is TRUE love. However, much of the time the alleged “speck” is simply the reflection of our own “plank” if we are being hypocritical. Psychology calls that “projection,” which Dictionary.com defines as “The attribution of one’s own attitudes, feelings, or suppositions to others” (see the “Medical Dictionary” toward the bottom of that page). So what do we have here?

          (1) Donna and I are NOT hypocrites in our godly judgment of the “fruit” of the people in question within this article (just a few verses later, Jesus told us to judge people by their manifest fruit; see Matthew 7:13-23). Neither of have the “issues” that the people in the article do, and neither of us are “wolves in sheep’s clothing” like they are. Thus, our eyes have been “plank-free” as we inspected the gigantic “planks” in the eyes of these religious frauds.

          (2) You swung your “plank” around quite vigorously, as you attempted to remove the alleged (and non-existent) “specks” in our eyes, by doing the very same thing you falsely accused us of doing. In fact, to whatever degree you have already discussed this issue with others, you are the one who has engaged in malicious “gossip,” not us for doing what Jesus, Paul, and others in the Bible did, when rebuking those in error publicly.

          Thus, since you “measured out” your false judgment, I simply took your very “measuring cup” and reflected your hypocrisy right back at you. Hopefully, you will accept this loving rebuke in the same spirit that it was intended, in the light of the passages above (e.g., re-read the passage from Titus above). Regardless, I would again suggest that you read the article to which I provided a link above before you consider replying at all. I think you will be surprised about what you find therein, for it will build upon these points and (hopefully) make it clear why you are in so much error.

          Always in Jesus,

          -Rich Vermillion

        • Oh, and I need to note that I had to correct several typographical errors within your post so that it is fully readable, and so that the translation engine of this website will have no problem converting it to other languages. I did not change anything that you wrote, but simply fixed the fact that you mashed words together and misspelled some of them. Again, I do this often with comments simply for readability and to enable our translation engine to work properly. :)

          BTW: Did you notice that the article above CLEARLY states that neither of us have a problem with people getting plastic surgery? No, I guess you did not. So let me add another suggestion: Read the article again, and discover what it actually SAYS…and the POINT being made…and then, perhaps, you will see even more clearly how hypocritical you were in posting your comment. Thanks.

          -Rich

  7. Yes, I agree that I may have felt more of what I perceived to have been an undertone to the article instead of paying closer attention to the words written there in.

    I just feel that I do not want to come against any preacher for I don’t know what accusations against them are actually factual? Do I know for certain that the preachers mentioned in the article or in the comments actually got face lifts and or actually took money meant for charity work and used it to have a rich lifestyle? It sure can look that way! I have heard of so many well known preachers and their scandals. It is not like you are touching a golden calf of mine in saying these things. I just don’t know the validity of the claims, and talk is cheap. The bible is final authority, not any preacher. I take what good I can from what they say, but Christ is my Lord, not they. So I won’t get all up in arms over hearsay or truths about these folk. God can raise up and He can put down. We all have sometimes logs in our eyes and want to be the ones to point out specks in other’s eyes, so that is why I feel as I do. Basically I can’t tell another’s heart and what is purposed in it. Only the Holy Ghost can. Now if these preachers got into “religion” to make a pile of money and to become famous at other’s expense-The Lord rebuke them. But if they were called and had fallen and have gotten into vanity, the Lord correct them and restore them. It is not for me to judge.

    Back in the 80’s there was a song made by the band Styx I think it was called “Show me the way”. An excellent song about seeking the Lord in a world where as the lyrics state something like, “Everyday I get more confused as the saints turn into sinners”. That is the thing Rich, I am not trying to come against your and your wife’s work here, but for people that are seeking God, when preachers seem to want to notice what is bad about each other (in doctrine or in deeds) more than to rejoice over what they do have in common; that is a detour to those who want to seek the Lord and have faith.

    Let’s shout from the roof tops that Jesus died for the sinner and that He forgives and has mercy rather than to nit pick each other.

    I guess that is at the heart of my perceived tone to the article and comments instead of paying more attention to the words.

    • Dawn, thanks for coming back and posting a follow-up comment. I truly believe that you have a heart to see good things for the Body of Christ, and to see people saved. That is EXTREMELY commendable, and thus, I want to express my appreciation for your heart in this matter.

      In response, however, let me point out that your “focus on the positive” is good in some ways, but bad in others. It is “good” in that you are not wanting to get so pessimistic that you can only see the glass “half-full.” I have run into too many cynics on the Internet, and thus, fully understand your point of view in that regard. Who wants to hang out with a “sour-puss” all the time? Not me, I can assure you! :)

      That said, your perspective (as expressed above) is also “bad” in that you do not seem to realize how much of the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels, and of the apostles in the Book of Acts and the epistles, is geared SPECIFICALLY toward confrontation of those in error. They even “named names” quite often in the Bible, and sometimes spent nearly their entire letter addressing errors in the Body of Christ (e.g. the general epistles of 2 Peter and Jude). They also “named names” in regard to those living in sin, and/or otherwise offending God’s holiness. Please note these few examples out of the many that could be cited:

      Luke 13:21-33 (NKJV, note in brackets mine): On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, “Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You.” And He [Jesus] said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’ Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.”

      Please note that Jesus called King Herod an insulting name! The term “fox” was a derogatory term among the Jewish people of that time that referred to a half-breed Jew who took advantage of the Jewish people through fraud or oppression. Thus, Jesus insulted Herod…by “calling a spade a spade” so to speak. Was what He said truthful? Yes it was, as any study of that evil king will quickly reveal. Thus, Jesus was quite frank in His discourse in addressing people, was He not? How about this second example from our Lord:

      Matthew 23:29-33 (NKJV): “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?”

      That is pretty blunt, is it not? His “tone” was not very “nice” either, now was it? Please study the entire chapter in Matthew twenty-three, because the whole discourse is VERY confrontational and comprehensive. Now, let’s look look at some examples from the apostles:

      3 John vs. 9-12 (NKJV): “I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God. Demetrius has a good testimony from all, and from the truth itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true.”

      It is interesting to note that John is often referred to today as the “Apostle of Love” because of his frequent use of the Greek word “agape” within his three epistles and the Gospel of John. Yet, this apostle had no qualms “naming names” and specifying the sins of a certain “Diotrophes” in the same town where Gaius lived (to whom the letter was addressed). He also specifically told Gaius that what that man was doing was “evil,” and then told him to STOP following the guy. He even went so far as to name ANOTHER minister in that town that he knew personally, and who had a good reputation for purity of heart and doctrine. Why? Obviously, he was suggesting “Demetrius” as an ALTERNATIVE to the “evil” man he had just named! In short, he told Gaius to “change churches.,” And John even went farther by indicating that if he could make into town, he would publicly “call to remembrance” the evil of Diotrophes himself!

      My sister…WHY would the “apostle of love” do such a thing? Simple: Because he LOVED Christ, Gaius, the Body of Christ, and the Truth…and in order to LOVE those, he had to REBUKE the other. Note what Paul said about such things:

      2 Timothy 3:1-5 (NKJV): “But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!”

      Are we in the Last Days? I believe we would probably both agree that we are. So what a NUTTY mess the apostle said we live in the middle of!!! How should a genuine minister of Christ handle such widespread apostasy? Note what he told Timothy just a few paragraphs later:

      2 Timothy 4:1-5 (NKJV) “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

      Did the apostle tell his protege to be nice to these people? NOPE. What kind of “tone” did Paul suggest for the Last Days, when the “time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts (KJV)…they will heap up for themselves teachers…and turn their ears AWAY from the truth…and to fables?” He said clearly to “preach the Word,” by “convincing, REBUKING, and exhorting.” That would at time, by necessity, be rather blunt and confrontational, would it not? In short, if a genuine minister of Christ is going to CONFRONT the error that is so widespread these days, he or she will probably sound a whole lot like what Jesus did above when confronting the Scribes and Pharisees–at least at times. Now note what Paul told Timothy to do in regard to sinning “elders” (i.e. “ministers):

      1 Timothy 5:19-21 (NKJV): “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.”

      Note that Paul not only told Timothy to rebuke sinning elders publicly (i.e. WITHOUT private consultation first), but also to do so without prejudice for who that person might be. In short, no matter who they were or their alleged “status” within the Church, they were to be confronted if Timothy did in fact know that sin was present (either by two or three witnesses, or by his own observation, since he would then not need any witnesses to know what was going on). Notice that Paul also DEMONSTRATED this same precept by acting upon it himself:

      Galatians 2:11-14 (NKJV): “Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, ‘If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?'”

      Please note that Paul saw what was going on firsthand in that church, so he did not need to consult any additional “witnesses” before taking action. He also did not bother to talk to Peter privately before dealing with the guy’s PUBLICLY displayed sin. He just stood up, and “told it like it is” in front of EVERYBODY. It would appear that Peter took the correction well too (note his kind words about the ministry of Paul in 2 Peter 3:15, written many years after the above incident occurred). Thus, Paul’s confrontation was successful in (1) Correcting Peter, and getting him back on track; (2) Repairing the damage done by Peter’s previous hypocrisy, and thus, getting the entire CHURCH back on track again with the true faith of Jesus Christ.

      Peter was not one to avoid “naming names” either, nor did he shun rebuking people publicly. A study of the account of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts chapter five, as well as Simon the Sorcerer in Acts chapter eight, will reveal that fact. If you also toss in his strong words as written by the Holy Spirit in 2 Peter chapters two through three, then you will see that this apostle was VERY quick to confront sin and error as well…and NO, he did not “line up witnesses” first before doing so either.

      I could continue citing more and more examples from Scripture, of course, but these above should make the point that there truly ARE “wolves in sheep’s clothing” wandering around devouring God’s sheep, and that genuine ministers of Christ are CALLED BY GOD and COMMANDED BY GOD to confront such error:

      Jude vs. 3-4 (NKJV): Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

      So let me finish up by reply by recommending several key articles of mine on this every website that will elaborate upon these and related subjects more fully, and encourage you to give them all prayerful study (each of these will open into a new window when clicked upon):

      Regarding how to identify and form sound biblical doctrine:

      * The Four Characteristics of Sound Doctrine
      * Judging Prophesy Correctly

      Regarding how to identify good ministers verses the heretics and “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” and what to do about the latter:

      * When Wolves Remove Their Clothes
      *
      How God Uses Heretics
      * Preachers of Righteousness

      Now regarding the “wolves” named in this article specifically, there is PLENTY of evidence of their wolfish behavior that can be found upon the Internet. A simple “Google” search can provide you TONES of data–and Donna actually provided links to some information about Paula White and Lindsay Roberts within the article itself (please note those hyperlinks). However, there are two very important websites where you can find a massive amount of data on any of these alleged “ministers”–and many others–which I will recommend to you here. In short, you do NOT have to “take our word for it,” if you are willing to do a little research on your own:

      *** ApostasyWatch.com (Click on “wolves” at the top of the page.)

      *** MinistryWatch.com (I suggest that you first watch the 20/20 news video about them on the home page, then do a search by clicking on “Find a Ministry.” This site will cover the financial data about these alleged ministries in detail, and thus, add much weight to my previous comments about “facelifts on donors’ money” above. Some of these wolves actually HIDE their financial data, however. But to see their wolfish nature, you can simply logically infer what they are doing by examining their fundraising tactics and opulent lifestyles.)

      I hope my “brief” reply here helps (chuckle). However, let me please encourage you to study these resources before posting any additional replies, or asking any further questions, within this thread. (Brief acknowledgements are fine, of course.) Having been an instructor in a Bible School previously, I am a real stickler for people doing their homework! ;)

      Thanks again for popping by.

      Always in Jesus,

      -Rich

  8. a whopping 18 followers. I thank GOD nobody else is reading this crap! It shouldnt be retweeted. How DARE you…..

    • Actually, you are apparently only noting the Facebook “likes,” which on such a heavy topic tend to be fewer than what would have occurred if our button had been “recommend” instead. But since the latter would not fit on our website’s page properly, it’s “like” statement puts people in a quandary when they are hit with such heavy teaching.

      However, our actual traffic on this article has been quite high…as our still-growing Feedburner email list, coupled with search engine traffic, keeps our readership very respectable — even on such hard-core topics. ;)

      So you ask, How dare I? How dare Donna? Let me ask you…how dare Jesus? How dare Paul? How dare James? How dare Peter? How dare John? Here are what they said about such things:

      Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

      1 Timothy 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

      Galatians 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?…

      James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

      2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

      Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”

      3 John v.9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. 10 Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. 11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God. 12 Demetrius has a good testimony from all, and from the truth itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true.

      Oh, my! These apostles dared to name names! Jesus even told a church that they were in ERROR for failing to do so! Perhaps that is WHY He explained how to spot a wolf wearing sheep’s clothing?

      Matthew chapter seven:

      The Narrow Way

      13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

      You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

      15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

      I Never Knew You

      21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

      Please note, Maggie H., that this passage above is ONE discourse, despite the subtitles from the NKJV version: There is a “narrow way” that leads to life, but a “broad way” that leads to destruction. What do the wolves in sheep’s clothing preach? They appeal to your various lusts and invite you to the broad way — they are “broad way preachers.” And what will the end be fore those who follow them? “MANY” will hear, “Depart from me you workers of iniquity; I never knew you.” Note where your covetousness is taking you:

      Ephesians 5:5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

      To be frank about it: You do NOT follow Copeland or these other wolves because you give ANY CARE for the state of THEIR souls. You follow them because they tell you want you WANT to hear, to satisfy your own covetous cravings. You have an “itching ear”… and they are VERY willing to “scratch” it in order to get your offering…which you are more than willing to provide them, to your own condemnation:

      2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

      You could not care less that what they teach you are “fables” and inconsistent with the Scriptures. You could not care LESS whether they go to Heaven or Hell themselves, for you do not even have enough sense to care for your OWN soul! You are on the broad way that is “easy” and leads to destruction, because the “narrow way” that is “hard” and which leads to life is unappealing to your carnality. So you THINK you support these wolves, but in reality, you are financial “meat” for them — and you don’t even care. You think you “love” these wolves, but in reality you don’t have enough sense to care for your own soul…much less theirs.

      I will stick with the New Testament, and the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles. Jesus told us how to identify wolves, warned us against the “broad way” preachers and road that leads to destruction, and even went so far as to explain the horrific FACT that “many” will hear Him say, “I never knew you, you who work iniquity.”

      I will ALSO continue to warn others AWAY from such wolves, as the Bible instructs me to do.

      How dare I? Well, when you either awaken to realize what frauds the Copelands really are (and we have documented millions of dollars of their ongoing fraud on KennethCopelandBlog.com) and you then repent and turn to a genuine faith in Christ — OR when you stand before Him and hear those terrifying words as you face damnation — then you will surely know “How dare I” because you will KNOW that you were forewarned by someone who genuinely cares for YOUR soul AND the souls of the Copelands.

      I would suggest you read Is Kenneth Copeland SAVED? to see our love and zeal for the salvation of the Copeland family and their followers. As you do, ponder if you are truly saved as well — because the same biblical precepts by which we know that he is NOT, are the same ones that indicate you are not either.

      Your other miscellaneous comments on our website have been deleted, however. This is the only one that I will bother replying to…and the public nature of my reply, Maggie H., should indicate that I am VERY much aware of who you are and what you are now wallowing within:

      2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

      May you awaken to the frightful state of your soul, and that your chosen “best life now” version of “Christianity” is a heresy…that clearly promises that Hell awaits your future, should you fail to repent.

      Always in Jesus,

      -Rich

      • Rich, very well said and a sobering reminder of all of us wo claim the Name of Christ to continually examine ourselves to see that we are in the faith. One of the primary fruits of the Spirit is humility…”if you want to be greatest in the Kingdom, you must be a servant” (paraphrased). I see no such fruit in the Copelands or other W o F teachers.

        Maggie, I sincerely and lovingly pray that you will receive Rich’s wise council and study the scriptures he has cited contextually and examine yourself first and the Copelands also. I will keep you in my pryaers.

    • maggie, if you have something intelligent to say, maybe you should, instead of just showing what type nature you have and what is in your heart and soul.

      I happen to know that Rich and Donna are receptive to honest, well reasoned, INTELLIGENT opinions, even when they disagree with them.

      Additionally, the quantity of hits a thread receives has no bearing on it’s validity, integrity and veracity. It seems that you have mistaken idolatry for orthodox (small o) Christian practices and have mistaken pleasing words for exposition. I hope you don’t read you Bible with the same level of discernment.

      The issue is about wise and unwise use of plastic surgery, but more importantly, it was about lifting up minds and spirits instead of jowls and cheekbones. Based on your level of spiritual maturity, I guess that I should explain that “lifting spirits” isn’t just about endorphin flooding after repeating Jesus name or Gods name. That is simply carnality. It is when the human spirit rises and the Holy spirit descends to meet each other.

      I hope that you will learn to read your Bible IN CONTEXT and that you have a transformative experience in Christ.

    • Hello Maggie,

      I just finally came to this today to read your comment. Here, again, is a quote from my article above, which sums up my point:

      “There must be a stirring up of the fear of God in the hearts of women. There must be an emphasis on the eternal consequence of sinful behavior, some of which even many gentiles would be too ashamed to participate in (1 Corinthians 5:1).”

      It is a crying shame that you see this subject as “crap.” And you can thank “God” all you want, but in your actions you are denying Him. Your “god” is a broad-way one, and as you follow him, you will eventually reach the destruction that God’s Holy Word promises.

      Judgment cometh, Maggie. I am really not moved by your words a bit, except for crying out for your soul — something you don’t seem to be doing for me — or for the wolf women I mentioned.

      Every time Rich and I stand up for righteousness and the “crucified life” that leads to eternal life — rather than the “best life now” life that leads to destruction (if this is your best life now, then Hell MUST be next) — we get a bunch of wolf groupies trying to correct us with no scriptural basis whatsoever. Even if they desperately try to pull something out of the Bible to argue their point, they come out looking like complete idiots in the flesh because their points and accusations are completely baseless and unscriptural.

      Maggie, there is no fear of God before your eyes. I know this because those who you actively try to defend (by calling my article “crap”) have no fear of God before THEIR eyes. You are following them, Maggie. Wherever they go, you go, and you will reap the same wages that they do.

      Maggie, I just don’t see any scriptural basis at all for this comment you have written. If you want to attack me, AT LEAST use some scripture. You didn’t give me anything to work with other than baseless insults. Sad.

      • As a general rule, those who resort to unwarranted “ad hominem” (i.e. name calling and taunting) have admitted already that they have NO rational argument by which they can oppose you. So they resort to mere verbal abuse (in this case, written abuse) instead of attempting to express anything intelligent in rebuttal. They really do not have any other choice, really.

        So, Donna, your article is now FURTHER proven by her lack of ability to confront it with rational argumentation. In other words, your reasoning was so sound biblically and logically, that Maggie had to resort to emotional irrationality in order to “oppose” your points.

        Well done, my wife. :)

  9. That was one of the best written and most scripturally sound list of reasons for confronting error I have seen to date. We are required to confont, rebuke and reprove error. Anyone who whould refute this is clearly not thinking with the mind of Christ.

    Thank you for the article Donna, and Rich for your additional insight.May there be more like you who are willing to take a stand no matter what the personal cost may be.

  10. I just can’t believe my eyes and ears when I read this Poison you so called Christians are saying about other believers. You sound like a bunch of pit vipers to me. Worked for the devil instead of God the one you claim to believe in. Because the Lord Jesus didn’t go around gossiping about his followers. Were suppose to be on the same team. No wonder the church is in the mess its in. So in cursing them you’ve cursed your self’s. I thought we were suppose to be looking at Jesus, Not everyone else. Jesus taught that we were not to Gossip cause you can destroy people that way. Looks like you people didn’t learn anything from Jesus. Only the Devil.

    • Apparently, you have no concern whatsoever for the souls of those we are pointing out. Let me guess–you want God to judge them, right? God most certainly IS Judge. That is why we cannot give up on trying to get these wolves to repent of their ways NOW. If they don’t, they have the Judge to face in eternity. If they judge themselves on earth and repent now, they will not face the ETERNAL judgement of such behavior then. But if they don’t judge themselves now, and continue in their sinful activities (WHICH ARE DOCUMENTED), can you not see the fate that awaits these people? My friend, it is NOT love to just let them continue on, storing up wrath for themselves, and wait for God’s judgment (which is FAR more intense than ANYTHING we have done in our exposing of these people) to come on them. I DON’T WANT Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Gloria Copeland, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, and etc., to go to Hell. DO YOU??????? We load our articles with Scriptures to show where our hearts are in all of this. If you can’t see that, then there is nothing we can say to convince you otherwise.

      Unfortunately, as long as folks like you continue to be supportive of wolfish leaders who God is about to heavily judge, these people will be emboldened to continue in their sinful ways, teaching people how to go to Hell with a positive attitude. How will you feel when those leaders are judged by God (both in this life and the one to come)? Will you be pleased with yourself that you didn’t “judge” them and warn others about them? Or will you WEEP profusely when you come to the realization that you allowed those false teachers to continue deceiving others (and that you actually contributed towards the spread of their teaching), taking many people with them throughout eternity?

      We have wept and prayed for the Copelands and other wolves. Have you done that for me and Rich? Do you care for our souls as much as we do for the Copelands, Paula White, and Creflo Dollar?

      We have no malice towards any of these people. But we have compassion on those whom they have wronged. Not sure why you called our writings “poison.” How can it be poison if they are words heavily backed up with Scripture, whose intent is to bring men to repentance? Please clarify.

      Not sure why you falsely accused us of spreading gossip either, since we are so heavily documented. We know FAR MORE than what we publicly reveal, simply because not everything we know (even though we are certain the information is true) is documented enough. But when the proof is there, it’s there. And just like a person should know if a child molester lives next door to them, the Body of Christ must know when a ravenous wolf is in their midst. Not sure why you are thinking we are “cursing” people, and “cursing ourselves” in the process when we do this. Please clarify.

      Not sure why you think we “work for the devil” by exposing wolves devouring the Body of Christ, while the wolves, in your eyes, have a right to wear the clothing they steal from God’s sheep. Not sure why you don’t care about the thousands, even millions, of people who have been fleeced by the false teachers who they trusted. Please clarify.

    • Alisha,

      I hope you do not mind, but I took the liberty of editing your comment by adding spaces after each sentence in order to separate them from each other. I did this to make it a bit easier to everyone read — especially for our International readers who will be reading your comment through our translation system in their native language. I also corrected your typo of “did’t” to “didn’t” for this same reason.

      Nevertheless, I left your improper use of capital letters and poor grammar intact. I did not want our readers to get the false impression that you are more educated than your poor writing skills seem to indicate.

      Now in my own reply, let me point out what an utter hypocrite you have demonstrated yourself to be. You wrote an insulting comment to us, while claiming that we are wrong in writing critically about the wolves this article mentions. Jesus said it best when He spoke about people like you saying:

      Matthew 7:5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

      You would do well to read my article “Judging”: Hypocritical vs. Biblical here on this website. Therein, you will discover more clearly WHY you are an utter hypocrite in posting the comment that you did, PLUS how you essentially proved that our own actions are completely biblical. In other words, you are self-refuted (i.e. you have proven our case, while disproving your own). That article will help you to understand this fact.

      Next, let me point out that you committed several OTHER logical fallacies in your absurd comment as well. As Donna has already pointed out within her own reply above, the most glaring one is your assumption that the people that we criticize are actually Christians. This is called the “Fallacy of Begging the Question” (aka, “circular reasoning”) because you have first ASSUMED that they are Christians (and most of them are not), and then used that assumption as the basis of your subsequent arguments that somehow we are wrong in wanting them to repent and get right with God.

      Thus, I would highly suggest that you read my article When Wolves Remove Their Clothes here on this same website, as therein I prove quite clearly that ALL genuine “wolves in sheep’s clothing” are UNSAVED, and thus, in need of redemption. (In other words, we are trying to get them saved, while warning others away from their false doctrine — and you are trying to stop us from such obviously biblical tasks.)

      Further, it would do you well to read Is Kenneth Copeland Saved? on our other website, because therein I reveal how utterly selfish people like you are — because you do NOT care about the souls of the people you seek to “defend” one bit. (And again, Donna has already elaborated upon this point somewhat within her comment above.) Furthermore, I not only prove from the Scriptures that the answer to the article’s title’s question is an absolutely irrefutable “no,” but also that people like you are probably not saved either because you are blatant idolaters yourselves. Thus, for your own soul’s sake, I suggest that you read with soberness the following Words of Jesus, noting the words in bold type:

      Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

      15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

      21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

      Please note that “MANY” follow the “broad way” that leads to destruction, but that FEW find the “narrow gate” and “difficult way” that leads to life. Then note that “MANY” will discover that they were NEVER saved, and will be damned for following the “broad way.” And where did they learn this “broad way gospel” message from? The self-serving wolves that Jesus described in between these two terrifying warnings. (Please note also 2 Corinthians chapter 11 and Galatians chapters 1 and two. Give special attention to the discussion of false gospels, false brethren, and even false Christs, so as to note that NOT everyone who claims to be a genuine minister of Christ, really is one.)

      In other words, HELL is the wrong place to discover that you are UNSAVED because you were on the WRONG path following self-serving WOLVES.

      I agree with you that the Body of Christ is in “such a mess,” but would argue that it is because of ignorant unsaved (or apostate) people like yourself filling the pews, and not because of genuine ministers of Christ (like ourselves) doing our jobs (e.g. see 1 Timothy 5:19-21; Galatians chapter 2, 2 Peter chapters 2-3, Jude in its entirety, and Revelation 2:12-29, for just a few examples out of MANY from Genesis to Revelation). Please note Matthew chapter 13 in its entirety, and how “tares” and “bad fish” get “harvested” among the true Christians, but end up rejected. Again, Hell is the wrong place to discover that you were never saved.

      In conclusion, I would highly suggest before posing any further comments here that you consider doing the following:

      (1) Read the articles I have mentioned above, for therein you will discover how utterly unbiblical and hypocritical your entire position truly is;

      (2) Give these matters great prayer and study;

      (3) Get SAVED yourself (as may be applicable) or REPENT of your apostasy wherein you turned from Christ to following wolves in your idolatrous greed (this would be the minimum, if you were ever born again before now);

      (4) Proof read your comments before submitting them in order to ensure that proper punctuation, spelling, capitalization usage, and grammar, are contained therein. While some typos are typical and to be expected (as we all make them), your errors are so glaring that they further detract from your self-refuting comment.

      Regardless, we do hope you will take these replies of our to heart, and read the aforementioned articles right away very prayerfully and studiously. At a minimum, my salvation-oriented article The Supreme Value of Righteousness would do you well, as we are BOTH very concerned that you are in fact unsaved, due to your demonstrated idolatry and lack of understanding of basic Christian theology (e.g. such as the fact that Jesus warned about “wolves in sheep’s clothing” and how to spot them, and that He rebuked two churches in Revelation chapter two for failing to do so; etc.).

      Once you have studied the above and made sure that you are actually saved, it would probably help if you consider some of the resources on our Logic, Apologetics, and Evangelism page, as they will help you to form better thinking/reasoning skills, and will significantly improve your understanding of the Bible.

      Always in Jesus,

      -Rich

  11. This article of my wife’s is amazing. It gets regular traffic from people using search phrases such as:

    “Paula White plastic surgery”
    “Gloria Copeland age and plastic surgery”
    “Joyce Meyer before facelift”
    “Has Joyce Meyers had plastic surgery”
    & etc

    (All of which, by the way, were today’s search phrases; and so, this is not an exhaustive list of the many such searches that have brought people to this particular article.)

    It would appear that many such people came here because they were wanting “cosmetic surgery” themselves, and thus, looking to their favorite “religious stars” for justification. “Why do you say that?” you might ask.

    Well, because if you look through the comments here in this thread (and a few more by similarly self-refuting people, whose comments we did not bother approving), this article really “hits a nerve” with these people. In short, they “react.” (Not all of this article’s readers, of course, as our feedback has been mostly positive to date.)

    Typically, they go into a very hypocritical tirade wherein they tell us we should not “criticize” these people or say “mean things” about them, while they themselves rail on us within their hypocritical criticisms and very hostile comments. So it is pretty plain to us that these people are DEFENDING THEMSELVES (in a very poor manner) and NOT the “religious stars” that they seem to idolize so much.

    *** In other words, this article by my wife, Donna, really gets “too close to home” for them, and they react angrily. ***

    However, by so doing, they actually prove some of Donna’s points:

    (1) That many professing “Christian” women are too interested in their outward appearance at the expense of their own inward hearts (hence, their apparent interest in reading about facelifts and finding this article in the first place).

    (2) That these same people are internally VERY bankrupt, as is evidenced by BOTH their preoccupation with “external things” AND the outright bitterness and hate that drips from their comments and emails to us (which, by the way, are not read in full but are added to my “fools and blind” folder, which I discuss in the article I will mention shortly).

    So again, this article of Donna’s is apparently EXACTLY what those people needed to read…though they obviously do not appreciate it very much.

    However, as I pointed out clearly within my following article, Donna and I are both being VERY congruent with the Scriptures in our commentary about people — because we are after changing the hearts of such people, and calling them to repentance. However, those who “react” to us so angrily are being 100% hypocrites, because they are NOT consistent by their criticisms of us IN THE FACE OF their insistence that we should “not” criticize others:

    http://richvermillion.com/2012/05/14/judging-hypocritical-vs-biblical/

    Fortunately, most of our emails/commentary is very supportive, and certainly NOT ALL people who come to this page doing such searches are doing so because of their internal misery.

    Nevertheless, it is intriguing to watch some people come into this article for the WRONG reasons, and then “flip out” once God’s Word has hit THEM right between the eyes…or more accurately, brought conviction upon them.

    May they consider these points soberly, and turn their attention to their OWN hearts instead of reacting against us (Matthew 7:5; 13-23).

    Always in Jesus,

    - Rich

    • Well, I can see you did not bother taking the time to read the article that I suggested. So after reading your first two hate-filled ranting sentences, I did not bother reading anything more of what you wrote either. ;)

      Your hypocrisy is clearly evident, but so is your hostility. In fact, your clear hostility is one evidence of your hypocrisy; within the article above we expressed our genuine concern about the people we addressed, but you have demonstrated nothing but hatred toward us.

      Your earlier post will remain visible as an example of self-refuted commentary. However, any subsequent rants will be deleted without reply and without being fully read.

      -Rich